Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

11

More AGM News-- Spiritual matters continue!

by yknot in

i always find it interesting how emails vary in perception.

two more 'snippets' have arrived and i am posting them for forum consumption (this is still technically 'spiritual food') and discussion.

as with the last thread, the original author and those they emailed are not responsible!

Olin Moyles Ghost

Thanks, yknot. While the discussion related to DF'd family members is a bit murky, I think the Society is trying to say "don't make excuses for unnecessary association with DF'd relatives." This becomes more clear when you look at the context in which it's addressed--right after an admonition to accept "scriptural counsel" regarding your personal lifestyle even if it differs from your personal opinion.

From the earlier thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200064/1/More-AGM-News):

Self-evaluation: …Ask yourself how you would react to counsel regarding personal lifestyle? What if the scriptural counsel differs from personal opinion? Will you be obedient in molding?
Example: An adult child who lives outside of the household is DFd? While the term ‘Necessary family business’ is a term familiar with those in this circumstance; the GB wants to stress there is no need to push this to the extreme! ….Basically to shorten the example and to get to the heart of the matter….. there must be incentive for the DFd person to want to return. Parents are encouraged to give a little but to leave the DFd child desiring for more while promoting their actions as motivate by their love for Jah. The end result is hope that the DFd child in wanting full access to the abundant love of his parents willl also begin to see his losses in not having a relationship with Jehovah and seek reinstatement.

The example given in this thread is a bit difficult to understand. In particular, I'm not sure what the sentence in bold is trying to say. The part about "necessary family business" not being in the Bible doesn't sound like something that would come from the WTS...

New 'spin' on the DFd parent-child which was previouslly mention in my first AGM thread. In this scenario the DFd adult-only-child is an atheist. The email draws out that perhaps the Adult-child privately became of atheist mindset before DFing (DFing apparently was due to speaking out on behalf of the FSM or apostasy) Faithful JWParents are encouraged to discern that 'Necessary Family Business' isn't actual in the Bible and thus we should not push it to an extreme. The hope is that the Adult-child will begin to feel a sense of loss and yearning over not receiving the full measure of his parents love and devotion and associate this loss and yearning too with not having a relationship (ie believing)Jehovah.

20

According to the WTS, who are fulfilling Jesus' prediction that there will be many false prophets in the last days?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

the bible predicts that there will be many false prophets in the last days.

here are some examples:.

matthew 24:11: "many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Another shameless bump. To recap: If the WTS agrees with Jesus that there will be "many false prophets" in The Last Days, then who are those false prophets? Can they name any of them? This shouldn't be hard because Jesus said there would be many of them.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

Olin Moyles Ghost

I find it entertaining when WTS apologists try to defend their leaders/clergy from charges of false prophecy. Just like Bill Clinton tried to raise doubts about "what the definition of the word 'is' is," the WTS clergy and its apologists concoct their own meaning of the word "prophet." Of course, this is a transparent attempt to explain away their glorious history of claiming to be God's sole channel for communication to mankind--and being wrong every time!

Only in WT-world can you have a group of religious leaders that (1) claims to be God's channel of communication, (2) on multiple occasions predicts that God will bring "The End" by a particular period of time, and (3) is wrong every time...but still allegedly don't qualify as false prophets. Talk about delusional!

My hat is off to these WTS leaders. They have over 7 million people who are willing to fall for this cover story. I guess P.T. Barnum was right--there's a sucker born every minute!

Notice two verses in Mathew about false prophets:

Matt. 24:11: "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people"

Matt. 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible."

If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that there will be many false prophets in The Last Days. WTS apologists contend that verse 24 requires the performing of miracles to qualify as a false prophet. However, they are unable to identify these "many false prophets" that are supposed to be performing miracles that "deceive even the elect" during these Last Days.

But the WTS meets this interpretation of verse 24 anyway because it contends that its "rich increase" in publisher numbers (now over 7 million) is the result of activity by God, Jesus, and the angels--and could not be accomplished by mere human activity alone. In other words, it's a "great sign and miracle."

So either way the WTS meets the definition of a false prophet. To argue otherwise requires twisting scripture, the English language, and logic. But religious fundamentalists (such as the WTS and its followers) are well-trained in all three.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Here are a few that resonate with me (note that these are from a Christian/Bible perspective; of course, to the extent the Bible is a book of fiction, then that should be enough to discredit all so-called Christian religions, including the WTS):

#1 - False Prophecy. In the Bible, Jesus predicted false prophets during the last days. The WTS has predicted "The End" numerous times (1914, 1918, 1925, "within a generation of 1914"). And each time has been a complete and utter failure. Of course, just like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, the WTS makes excuses, even torturing the meaning of the word "prophet" beyond recognition. When the WTS does this, it reminds me of former U.S. President Bill Clinton who famously testified that "it depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is."

#2 - Going beyond what is written. In the Bible, Paul commands not to go beyond what is written. The WTS does this all the time. For example, it has invented rules about sexual practices between marriage mates, banned organ transplants, and forbidden the celebration of the anniversary of one's birth. None of these things are touched on in the Bible, but the WTS has taken it upon itself to invent rules (much like the Catholic church and other denominations of Christendom).

#3 - Slandering God. The WTS teaches that "imminently" God will kill every man, woman, and child that does not have the "mark for survival" described in Ezekiel 9. According to the WTS, the "mark" includes being baptized as a Witness. Thus, the WTS teaches that God will "imminently" destroy billions of people--many of whom have never even read a Bible, much less a WT. The scriptural backing for this doctrine is tenuous at best.

28

Watchtower images required

by jwfacts in

does anyone have any images from watchtower publications of "worldly people"?

i remember some collages of worldly people doing evil things and would like to included them in some articles..

Olin Moyles Ghost

The WT quotes site has some pictures here: http://www.myiphonestuff.info/qwotes/pictures.htm

67

When will the crashing and burning of this organization begin?

by easyreader1970 in

jw
friends

as i see it, there are three looming threats that all have the potential - individually or combined - to bring the wbts to its knees, at least in the united states, anyway.. 1. youth retention.

the young people aren't buying it.

the watchtower will argue that faithless young people are giving in to demonic persuasion and leaving the truth.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Easyreader: Your points are valid to some extent, but I don't see the WTS going away any time soon. As sir82 pointed out, there's a large chunk of the population that wants to be told what to do. Groups like the WTS fill that role.

Your first point (youth retention) has been a problem for a long time. For at least 20 years, I've heard elders and CO's state that only 20-30% of young ones stay in (I recall the Pew study from 2008 puts it at 37%). Nonetheless, the increase over the last 20 years has been HUGE. The fact of the matter is that the WTS doesn't need its young people--at least in the short and mid-term.

There are plenty of suckers...I mean sheep-like-people...out there who are desperate and ignorant enough to join. And that will be the case for the foreseeable future--especially when China opens up, likely some time in the next decade. I predict that we'll see 10 million JWs within the next few years.

Your second point (fewer males able to teach) is a more recent phenomenon--at least in the U.S. I think it is a factor in the WT's recent downsizing (no more book study, etc.). The WTS has several options on how to handle this. I don't think they'll get to the point of having female MS/elders, but they may have women handle more non-teaching roles, such as literature, microphones, sound system, territory, accounts, etc. This way, the elders and MS could simply handle teaching parts and public talks. Also, the WTS could continue to downsize. One easy thing to do is get rid of that farce of a "congregation Bible study" in the mid-week meeting.

I agree with your third point (science is a problem for the WTS). But the WTS seems to be attacking it head-on. There were two brochures released at the conventions this year on evolution/creation. Also a few years back (I think it was 2005 or 2006), there was a "special" issue of the Awake aimed directly at creation/evolution. The WTS is borrowing heavily from the "intelligent design" movement.

Also, the WTS has backed away from some of its embarrassing positions--particularly that the "creative days" were 7000 years each. Today, you can be a JW and believe in the "big bang" and that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago (which wasn't the case when I was growing up as a JW). I don't see the WTS taking this much further, though.

But remember that something like 50% of Americans don't accept evolution at all. So, the WTS/JW faith is not really out of the mainstream on this issue--at least in the USA. It's probably a different story in Europe, though.

13

Watchtower Meetings: Catholicism and Collapse?

by metatron in

jw
friends

if you are an old timer (with a good memory), you can clearly see the downward trend within witness meetings.. for example: at one time, the theocratic ministry school had a written review that was turned in and graded and handed back like any exam!

now, i observe the school talks done at the last minute by people grabbed to fill in - and the talks themselves require little or no effort , at that.. who comments?

kids with one word answers.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Good points, meta. When you think back over the past few decades, it's interesting to see how easy it is to be a Witness these days. It's all being scaled back and dumbed down. In general, the progression has been something like this (feel free to correct me if I have mistakes in here):

- 1960s: week-long district assemblies, hour-long public talks, 100 hours per month to be a regular pioneer or "vacation pioneer", no reading of paragraphs in WT study, TMS written review graded by TMS servant

- 1970s: 4-5 day district assemblies, read paragraphs during WT study

- 1980s: 4 day district conventions, pioneer hours cut to 1000 per year (83 or so per month), 60 hours per month to auxiliary pioneer, public talks cut to 45 minutes, written review graded individually

- 1990s: 3 day district conventions, pioneer hours cut to 840 per year (70 per month), auxiliary pioneer hours cut to 50 per month, infirm/elderly can be counted as "regular" with as little as 15 minutes of activity per month

- 2000s: public talk cut to 30 minutes, book study eliminated, written review replaced by oral review

16

Pledge of Allegiance vs. Oath of Allegiance

by undercover in

as has been exposed, leaders of the wt corporation signed "oaths of allegiance" in order to secure a us passport for international travel.. another thread has a link to photocopies of these passports: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/198658/1/lemon-pledge if you haven't seen them.

marvin shilmer also has a blog on this same subject.. the purpose of this thread is to explore the question: is signing the oath of allegiance the same as reciting the pledge of allegiance?.

on the surface it seems pretty damning.

Olin Moyles Ghost

There's a Questions From Readers article on this--from the 1970s, I think. If I recall correctly (it's been a while since I read it), the WTS "logic" goes something like this:

(1) Signing an oath of allegiance to support and defend the constitution is different from pledging allegiance to a flag--which the WTS considers an idol.

(2) Also, the constitution of the US and other western countries include a provision for freedom of religion.

(a) Hence, the WTS could argue that an oath to support and defend such a constitution would necessarily be limited by its freedom of worship provisions.

(b) Thus, any such oath made by a Witness would incorporate by reference the WTS "neutrality" doctrine. This would mean that a Witness would only be swearing to "support and defend" the constitution up to the point it conflicted with WTS doctrine.

213

Brace yourselves: The GOOD things about the WTBS! heh

by theMadJW in

yes-lotta nonsense; a self-proclaimed "slave class" that is not a prophet but like a prophet, giving so awfully embarrasing opinions that are supposed to be automatically acceted by all of us jws...pretenders...mistakes... and moves not "discreet" at all- like the ngo united nations membership they secretly had for awhile....terrible, isn't it?.

i mean, look at the inspiring example we have in churchianity: such wonderful dogma- such as the three sadist-gods who have been torturing billions of men, women, and children for thousands of years- with eternity to go...and god making the universe in 72 hours...and backing the wars of their governments- "god and country!

", as they send their men out to war, telling them they will be blessed for it, and so many more wonderful revelations: the rapture, once-saved, tithing, etc.

Olin Moyles Ghost

There are some good things about the WTS. In particular, they teach strong morals. Now, I don't believe in fairy tales, but I have no quarrel the morals taught by fundamentalist groups like the WTS/evangelicals/Mormons/etc.

But I've got to take issue with MadJW's list of supposed "good things about the WTS":

1- Kingdom Halls with no collections, tithing, nor paid clergy; why even marriages and funerals are FREE!

No paid clergy? What do you call circuit overseers, district overseers, special pioneers? They get paid, don't ya know? Funny how they claim to follow the example of the first century Christians. But you may recall that Paul (who was a "traveling overseer) actually worked for a living! How many WTS traveling overseers actually work for a living? Zero.

2- The Truth about God, Christ, the spirit, the Kingdom, the dead, Hell, Resurrection, God's Purposes, and so much more TRUTH taught and PROVEN!

Well, I don't believe in fairy tales, so I hesitate to call any theology "truth."

3- FREE Bibles and any tolls needed.

Yep, they do give away Bibles and WTS literature. No argument here. Not sure what "any tolls needed" means, though.

4- The most HONEST and ACCURATE of all translations (none of the churchoids here have been ABLE to to any example of mistake)

I'm not trying to be mean, MadJW, but this statement betrays a startling level of ignorance about the Bible and how it was compiled. There are so many manuscripts with so many differences and contradictions, that it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell what was originally written. In the New Testament alone, there are more discrepancies between the manuscripts than there are words in the text! Thus, we've got a case of GIGO (garbage in - garbage out).

5- The Love we have for each other, as well as God and Christ: Love is CATCHING, and my WQTBS promotes it

Just as in any other group, there are some good ones and some bad apples. As someone who's been associated with the WTS in one way or another for several decades, I can tell you that there are some very good people who truly care for each other. And there are some mean/petty/selfish people as well. All it proves to me is that the WTS is just like any other group, club, fraternity, church, etc., when it comes to "showing love among themselves."

6- The backing and the training that enables us to ACTUALLY OBEY Christ's command to preach the Good News of the Kingdom to the World! (Not pay clergy to do it in fancy church buildings.)

See above regarding the WTS's unscriptural practice of paying its traveling clergy.

149

NOW how do you view the Future?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

casting aside what little you learned about god and christ- are you thrilled with the future of mankind?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW: So, those of you who have left the Truth because of bad example or vice- what have YOU replaced it with to make you happy?

Response:

Many of us left the Watchtower faith for reasons other than "bad example or vice." What about those of us who no longer practice the Watchtower faith because we don't believe it anymore? Are you interested in what we "replaced it with"? That's like asking a person who had a rusty nail stuck in his foot what he replaced it with. Why replace it with anything? I know several former witnesses who enjoy having the opportunity to spend more time engaging in meaningful activity with their family. Rather than wasting 5 to 10 hours per week in WTS activity, they have more time to do things like help their children with homework, cook dinner together as a family, etc. Simple things that bring families closer together.